I Must Object...

On her Xanga, bondgirl78 (Sarah), posted the 2nd Letter of Clement with various highlights and notes. One of her notes is as follows:

"even the early, early church fathers believed we are saved through heartfelt repentance, not through baptism or another act."

I do not know if it is that she hasn't read all of the Apostolic fathers, or if she just noticed that the author of that letter didn't mention baptism. She did agknowledge before the letter the purpose of the letter. She says:

" it was written in response to the false teachings of cerdo, a gnostic. gnostics believed the body was separate from the soul, so that we could sin all we want and it didn't matter. "

So it was written in response to the error that how you act does not affect your salvation, only your faith matters. Hmmmm...what does that sound like? What is more important is that it is in response to how Christians are to live AFTER baptism, AFTER faith is already present. So her agreement that "we are saved through heartfelt repentance" is essentially agreeing with the Catholic notion that you are continuously justified throughout a lifelong heartfelt repentance, a life of works of faith, not just the first time you repent.

Further, the letter does mention baptism:

"[W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?" (Second Clement 6:7–9 [A.D. 150]).

Also, it is as if Sarah thinks that heartfelt repentance is not an act or extension of our faith. Man cannot repent at all without grace, and he cannot repent apart from his faith. Repentance is a "good work". Sorry Sarah, but I think you just told everyone that we are justified by a good work.

And for the record, heartfelt repentance is a pre-requisite for baptism.

That aside, I thought I would include what the fathers had to say about baptism and salvation:

Fathers before Second Clement:

"Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Ps. 1:3–6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, ‘Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls" (Letter of Barnabas 11:1–10 [A.D. 74]).

"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (Hermas, The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

"Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply" (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to Polycarp 6 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr (Alive at the same time as Second Clement):

"Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: ‘In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit,’ they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven’" (First Apology 61:14–17 [A.D. 151]).

Fathers after Second Clement:

"Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration—all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God" (Theophilus, To Autolycus 12:16 [A.D. 181]).

"When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191]).

 "Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (Tertullian,  Baptism 12 [A.D. 203]).

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Origen, Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation." (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

Just to name a few. The church has always held baptism to be necessary and the beginning of salvation, without which no man can be saved. Sarah, please keep reading the fathers.

Discussion!!

While discussing certain Christian doctrines on Catholic_Defender's xanga, a protestant with the xanga handle bondgirl78, suggested the following course of action:

"So, why don't you start by giving me one topic that my church errs on and we can disect it, maybe on your site or mine so we don't clog up Grace's."
-Bondgirl78 (Grace is "Catholic_Defender", Bondgirl's name is Sarah)

I thought this was a great idea because I have been asking protestants for years to do this, and finally it has happened. A protestant doctrine will now be put up to the same test that protestants put catholic doctrine up to. Then, if it can survive its own scrutiny, it will be put up to the catholic test.

Sarah, the doctrine I choose is:

Sola Scriptura / The Bible Alone

Now this is how it will work. Because it is your doctrine, you may define it as you wish, and it will hopefully be in line with one school of protestant thought on the subject. If it isn't, so be it. At any rate, in the definition, include what you mean by certain terminology that you think might be misunderstood by both catholics and protestants. What I ask that you refrain from doing, is providing support or evidence that your defined idea is actual true Christianity, that is step 2. So for now, I ask for a definition. If I understand it fully and what you mean by it, then you may give support and such. I only wish to do this so as to avoid future confusion or misunderstanding. By knowing exactly what you mean by certain words and ideas, I can better understand what it is you are trying to prove/show. Remember, it is YOUR doctrine being examined, not any of the Catholic Church's.

"i just can't comprehend how you all think Catholicism is so true when you petition to dead people. i mean scripture doesn't say we go to heaven immediately, so why pray to the dead?...and it certainly gives no hope for purgatory."
-Bondgirl78

I think there is a lot in here that needs handling, so why not just start at the beginning. =)

"i just can't comprehend how you all think Catholicism is so true"

I don't rely on my own understanding, I rely on the teachings of the church and my faith in its founder, Jesus Christ =). Sorry, I couldn't resist.

"when you petition to dead people...so why pray to the dead?"

This kind of questioning about the "dead" sounds so familiar...what am I thinking of...oh ya...the SADDUCEES! In Matthew 22, the Sadducees are questioning Jesus about the resurrection of the "dead", basically denying it. Jesus's reply to them fits nicely as a reply to the question, "why do you petition to dead people?" Jesus says:

Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God....have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” -Matthew 22:29-32

So right off, my first response to that question is that no Catholic petitions to dead people, the people we petition to are quite ALIVE, even more alive than we are! Moving on...

As Christians, we are all part of the Body of Christ (Romans 12:5, 1 Cor 12). That Romans 12:5 text actually says "each member belongs to all the others". This is important. When we die and begin living with Christ in heaven, we are STILL a part of that same body of Christ. Christ does not have many bodies, but one. We who are on earth are a part of it, as well as those in blissful eternity. That being so, from the fact that Romans 12:5 tells us that each member belongs to all the others, and from Jesus telling us we are ALIVE in heaven (Matt 22), we are in a communion with those Christians on earth as well as those Christians in heaven. That being the case, spritual communication between souls in heaven and souls on earth is possible, and possible only because of Christ and his body. Now, petitioning? Let us continue.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 6:18

"And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints"

Saints refers to all in Christ. As we have seen above, all in Christ includes those souls in heaven. So praying for and with the souls in heaven is merely obeying Paul's request. Further, you petition people on earth most likely. Surely you have asked someone or someone has asked you to pray for them. This is a petition, I would call it an "invocation". You are invocing someone else to pray for you, and they "intercede" on your behalf to God, through Christ. This does not mean you yourslf also don't pray, it just means you have gathered some extra prayer for your intentions. In the EXACT same way, Catholics petition, or invoke the saints in heaven to pray for us here on earth. The saints in heaven act just like your friend at church would, the only difference being that the Saints in heaven are in the direct and eternal presence of Christ. So it is theologically and biblically sound to invoke the saints. But we are not through yet.=)

Undoubtedly, requests will come asking to show in scripture evidence of anyone praying for a "dead" person. To such a request, I will simply say, "I'm glad you asked"

We all remember Lazarus. The man physically died, and Jesus brought him back to physical life. Let's look at the gospel account of Jesus words before raising Lazarus:

"So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.” -John 11:41

Here Jesus is praying to the Father here in thanksgiving for hearing His prayers. His prayers brought Lazarus back from the dead, as we all know. But if Jesus prayed to the Father about Lazarus, and Lazarus was "dead"...no, can't be...was Jesus just praying for a dead person? Yes he was. Now, you are probably thinkin, but that is Jesus, that doesn't count, because He is God. To which I will say fair enough, is there any evidence of someone who is not God praying about a dead person? What you got Pete?

"Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive." -Acts 9:40-41

Here we have a similar situation. Tabitha has "died", and Peter comes to her death bed. "He got down on his knees and prayed". What could Peter possibly be praying for if not in regards to this "dead" woman? Peter's prayer about the woman is answered, and she comes back to life.

Wait a minute Jeff, that is different, they are just praying for a "dead" person, not to a dead person. Indeed, which is a closely related topic. The gist here though is, praying in some way shape or form for a dead person is recorded at least twice in scripture. As for saints hearing our prayers in heaven and interceding to God, here's one:

"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand." -Revelations 8:2-4

Here we have the image of an Angel before God offering prayers and incense. The prayers are "of all the saints", which I have already shown, includes us on earth, and those people in heaven. Ya ya ya, but where does scripture say that saints in heaven can hear our petition?

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." - 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

Paul reveals here that in heaven, "perfection", we "shall know fully, even as [we] are fully known". In heaven, we understand the world and its metaphysical and spiritual ways fully, including prayer. Saints in heaven can hear our prayers, and offer them to God through Christ, right beside our own prayers directly to the Lord.

I will answer the second part of the question, purgatory, after class.

Over the next few days, I will be posting some new stuff. this has been sparked by a discussion about Peter's Primacy, which, surprize surprize, brought up other Catholic Doctrines. Here is the post by Bondgirl that sparked this:

Good point. I can see that. But Peter was used to found churchES, and i just can't comprehend how you all think Catholicism is so true when you petition to dead people. i mean scripture doesn't say we go to heaven immediately, so why pray to the dead? and it certainly doesn't say mary was immaculate. and it certainly doesn't say Christ is alive in communion. and it certainly gives no hope for purgatory.

"hmm, if i could get over all these fallacies and false teachings maybe i could be catholic"

God willing =).

I think I will answer the "praying to the dead" question first...ya...

Mortal Versus Venial Sin, is there any difference? Is there any difference between sins, or are all sins the same?

The Protestant Says:

All sins are the same in God's eyes. The Bible says, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (James 2:10). Therefore, all sins are equally grave. The Bible also says, "All wrongdoing is sin" (1 John 5:17). Some people would say speeding is not nearly as bad as murder, but only in sight of man, not in God's eyes. We must learn to see sin like God does.

The Catholic Rejoinder:

All sins are the same in God's eyes in light of the fact that God will always forgive the sins of a repentant and contrite man, no matter how grave. However, God sees sins in different gravity. Speeding (disobedience to a civil ordinance) is not as grave as fornication (disobedience to the Ten Commandments), and this is not just an innovation of man. An explicit example of this is found in John's account of the Passion of Christ. Pilate has just told Jesus that he has the power to release Him, and Jesus responds with this:

"Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." (John 19:11)

This is Jesus, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Alpha and the Omega, speaking about someone's sin (i.e. the sin of Judas). If the sin Judas committed is more grave than that of Pilate, and it is God stating this, He sees different sins in different degrees of gravity.

In response to the verse from James chapter 2, I would simply ask for the 2 verses preceding James 2:10, and the one following. Let's put it in context...

"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"^[2] also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker." (James 2:8-11)

The law being spoken about is the internal law of God, the law written on our hearts. This law includes the things like do not commit adultery, and do not murder, things that all humans, gentile and Jew alike have written on their hearts. Breaking this law, "showing favoritism", murder, adultery and the like, is what a Catholic considers, mortal sin. The effects of which separate you from God's grace, returning you to a state iniquity, spiritual death. In context, James 2:10 shows a glimpse of the effects of mortal sin, committing just one makes you as guilty as if you had broken them all.

As fas as 1 John 5:17 is concerned, "All wrongdoing is sin", I say, keep reading. The whole verse reads like this...

"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not (venial) lead to death." (1 John 5:17)

In context:

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." (1 John 5:16-17)

The author here explicity makes a dichotomy between two kinds of sins, those which lead to death (mortal sin) and those that do not lead to death (venial). Like Paul said, "the wage of sin is death". But if John says not ALL sin leads to death, some sins are not as grave as others, thus, there are different kinds of sins, mortal, and venial.

This can also be seen in the Old Testament. First of all, certain sins received different degrees of punishment, based on their gravity. However vague that might sound, the most explicit Old Testament show of mortal sin and its effects is found in Ezekiel...

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die." (Ezekiel 18:24)

This is a fairly accurate portrayal of the effects of mortal sin. Feel free to comment on anything I have said. Peace